Stop Making Sense

Not just American politics OC but also the mentality of the people.

I just read an interesting seed about open-mindedness and logical debate. I cross-posted this seed there. Perhaps you would like to view the video contained there. The two present an interesting and ironic juxtaposition.

Watching a crime show yesterday, I saw a security video of a home invasion where three people were coldly murdered. You see the guy who owns the house standing near the door, and a guy comes in pointing a gun at him. Then the gunman draws the gun back over his shoulder and slams it into the victim's head.

The time between when the gunman started to draw the gun back to use it as a club, and when he actually hit the victim shows the victim just standing there... doing nothing, not even raising his hand to block the blow. Although the victim tried to fight later, by then he'd been hit in the head several times and was flat on his back on the floor.

His ONE chance was while the gunman drew back the gun to hit him the first time - and having talked to crime victims I know exactly why the man didn't jump the assailant at that point. The victim just couldn't believe it was happening. Criminals count on this denial of the reality of their situation. It gives them an edge. By the time it sinks in that this person is here to hurt or perhaps KILL you - by the time your mind accepts that reality, it's usually too late.

That's where America is today. We see the garbage going on, we see Obama and Bernanke and Geithner and Pelosi and Reid feeding our money to the crooks and making rules that will tie our hands in the future and make anything they do "the law" so that we won't be able to stop them just by voting them out.

Today America is of three minds. One is the Obama-ites - the Faithful who would not, COULD not believe that Obama is drawing back his gun and is about to bash us in the head. Two is the people who don't even notice the gun. And Three is those who really don't WANT to believe that things are that bad, and we're thinking that we can throw the crooks out in 2010.

Just a couple of simple questions - when did all this mess start? Do you think that putting Republicans in office will stop it? Or do you think that we will even be able to have an honest election, and if we do, that it will make any difference?

What reality are YOU dealing with today?

I that the "royal" YOU? Or are you addressing me personally?

I'm addressing the YOU of whoever reads what I wrote. (Response not required - but you should think about the question.)

the man has a place for that which it has no use for
it's called oblivion by some, nowhere etc by others
i often wonder if there's any speck o land sea or air
i can wander into eventually, relatively unmolested
the man does not want us arbitrarily encouraged
the masses stand or sit or lie, between the top n bottom...
as a buffer zone slash shadow realm between heaven n hell
we take all the consequences n the man don hafta even listen
until such time as that fits in his plans
we all hope n pray the man needs us
optimism tastes like plastic
n so who made it like that ?

I do agree with your implied point. I think the author detracted from an important point by including slick Willie as a supporting point.

did you even watch the presidential election?

palin/mccain and every other speaker they had on the trail with them whipped up a furious hatred that has fractured this country

you show me a modern conservative who isnt a hatemonger and ill show you someone who gets no respect and isnt reelected by his fellow republicans

id dearly love to see some financial conservatives make real headway in this country but for the time being the republicans have only hate anger and jealousy and its a heartening sign that they are finally begining to lose power so possibly we can return to the idea that republicans are about fiscal conservancy instead of just preaching about how much of an abomanation gays are

Hard,

and its a heartening sign that they are finally begining to lose power so possibly we can return to the idea that republicans are about fiscal conservancy instead of just preaching about how much of an abomanation gays are

You should not just be in heartened, you should be elated. The republicans are currently pretty much powerless. Obama is operating with impunity.

Let me ask you this; if the roles were reversed and a republican president put forth the notion that there is no time for debate on these matters due to the severity of the crisis and blatantly thumbed his nose at the democrat minority, would you not be incensed? Do you recognize the inherent danger of either party being in real (not perceived) complete control? Our founding fathers did when they recognized a need for checks and balances.

is that a joke themman?

that is precisely what george bush did when he used 9/11 as a tool to undermine 8 of the first ten amendment

and im not an obama-ite but would you care to give a quote or link showing where he said anything was too important to debate

cause frankly its stuff like that that doesnt have a basis in fact, that is the cause behind the demise of the republican party

because people are stupid but not that stupid

hard to argue with that,

Quote from Obama's speech in Elkhardt, Indiana on Feb 9 2009:

"The situation we face could not be more serious. We have inherited an economic crisis as deep and as dire as any since the Great Depression. Economists from across the spectrum have warned that if we don't act immediately, millions more jobs will be lost, and national unemployment rates will approach double digits. More people will lose their homes and their health care. And our nation will sink into a crisis that, at some point, we may be unable to reverse.

So we can no longer afford to wait and see and hope for the best. We can no longer posture and bicker..."

Obama made several speeches very similar to this to promote the stimulus bill. Same kind of urgency Bush used to justify the Iraq war (as you pointed out). I'm not saying the stimulus bill or the Iraq war were good or bad, right or wrong, because I don't know. I'm just saying fear is a powerful tool of influence and our political leaders use it a lot.

Economists from across the spectrum have warned that if we don't act immediately, millions more jobs will be lost,

I need a definition of his spectrum because I can point him to economists who say the EXACT OPPOSITE. Maybe it's the spectrum of economists that he wants to listen to. Let's see... Bungling Ben, and ummmm.... Tax Cheat Timmy, and ummmm..... ummmm.... ummmm....

Do you deny the fact of the hundred million+ killed were linked to the very ideologies to which we seemingly rocket nowadays?

No. whatever those ideologies--whom those people adhere to--happen to be nowadays.

Or that the strategy of the powers that be is to conflate "sheep farts" into a narrative of, "Beware the end of the world is nigh and I have all the answers. I can save you!" ??

Again nothing new. We can debate the merits and the effect of livestock on the environment, but it seems a little disingenuous to decry that conflation, while at the same time comparing the need to demonstrate some level of concern for our environment to all 20th century deaths caused by man, while implying those deaths were caused by terrorism....all in one sentence. But still, that's not what I was driving at on the other thread.

The point of my comment on the other thread was that the author's act of limiting the only reality we need to consider to "humans willful acts of violence against others" seems a little odd considering the notion of "open mindedness" from the JREF video.

For instance, his use of innuendo when talking about famine, suggesting we only need "to see what the men there are up to" for an explanation as to why crops etc...fail. Really, it's just what those people are up to? Whatever that is supposed to mean.

Lono, I was too tired to address this last night when I finally got around to it. The second cup of coffee is kicking in and I'm still struggling. ;^)

I don't argue that the author mixes apples and oranges to make a point. He uses the most dire aspect of totalitarian regimes with the most ridiculous aspect of global warming to emphasize his thesis. This is rather like Saul Alinsky's "power of ridicule" rule, though, don't you think?

I hope this is pertinent to your post. If not, it's because I don't understand the point, not because I'm ignoring it.

Ellie, Sorry I took a minute to get back to you, a little hectic around the home office these days.

He uses the most dire aspect of totalitarian regimes with the most ridiculous aspect of global warming to emphasize his thesis. This is rather like Saul Alinsky's "power of ridicule" rule, though, don't you think?

I would say it's sort of pertinent. I was talking about it in reference the JREF video over on Brad Leclerc's column. In that the video was talking about having--and I'm paraphrasing-- an open mind for possible causation. So when this guy takes the step of dismissing efforts to curb sheep farting (in an entertaining Alinsky-like fashion I might add) he's running counter to the JREF video's suggestion given what we know about farming and it's effects on the environment was all I was saying.

:)

Thanks for the response and debate. I've never studied debate formally, but I have Alinsky's book in my stack.

Very well said. I've recently added the following quote to my column:

"I am not bound to win, but I am bound to be true. I am not bound to succeed, but I am bound to live by the light that I have. I must stand with anybody that stands right, and stand with him while he is right, and part with him when he goes wrong." Abraham Lincoln

Each of us must know what we believe and why we believe it. Only then we will know with whom we will stand. We seem to have it backwards.

Ellie, I think as long as we can all remember to always question what we're told and consider the motivations of those "telling", we'll at least have a broader understanding of what the greater truth may be.

..and sometimes, we have to resign ourselves in the understanding that you can't change the nature of a thing. A snake is always a snake, but a catepillar eventually learns to fly. We need to know which one we're dealing with.

Again, well said. Question everything and know the limits of your influence. Saves a lot of wasted energy and frustration.

Ellie,

Each of us must know what we believe and why we believe it. Only then we will know with whom we will stand. We seem to have it backwards.

It is too easy for many to simply regurgitate party dogma, spout the rants of their favored talk show celebrity or simply not ponder at all. Kind of a lazy person’s way of establishing for themselves who they are. To do otherwise requires research and soul searching.

Add to that, themman, the fact that so much of our nation's current problems are just so durned complex. And, we're all working so hard trying to keep our jobs...who has time to do the legwork? Critical thinking takes time even if you're not one of the lazy ones.

But, having said that, I agree with you. Too many outsource their thinking to too few.

Add to that, themman, the fact that so much of our nation's current problems are just so durned complex. And, we're all working so hard trying to keep our jobs...who has time to do the legwork? Critical thinking takes time even if you're not one of the lazy ones.

But, having said that, I agree with you. Too many outsource their thinking to too few.

Ellie

The problems are not as complex as they appear. The president of JP Morgan said it well just recently when he said that the root cause of the problems is that wealth has been draining out of the U.S. for decades now and that at some point it was going to lead to the current problem.

Look at how much money we send out of the country for fuel each month. Over just a few years this is far more than TARP or the stimulus bill. We simply cannot continue to do this and survive as a nation.

So, the first thing to deal with is energy. If we solve that, the rest will fall into place. It is not hard to explain, it is just that the people in DC running the country do not have a clue about what really to do. Obama's energy plan will do little to fix this.

Wealth has indeed been draining out of the country...into the pockets of central bankers around the world. And governments have cooperated, probably under the mantle of fear over what would happen to their beloved countries if they didn't. But, it's a ponzi scheme that cannot continue.

So, I get what you saying, but, I do think it's complex. We must find a way to unwind the insanity while simultaneously maintaining civility and civilization. I believe your pet energy project (nuclear) could play an important part in that outcome.

Getting back to the top of this thread, though, I think real governance must be shifted back closer to the people as intended by our founders. Otherwise, the "feds" will never relinquish it willingly, will continue grabbing more power and will never break away from the central banks. We will be a part of the One World Order before we know it.

Wealth has indeed been draining out of the country...into the pockets of central bankers around the world. And governments have cooperated, probably under the mantle of fear over what would happen to their beloved countries if they didn't. But, it's a ponzi scheme that cannot continue.

Looked at downtown Abu Dabi lately? Or Hong Kong?, Or Taipei?

Go to any store, look at how much of what is on the shelves is made in another country. I tried very hard to find American made drill bits at Lowe's last week and could not.

No doubt what you say is true...all financed by debt through international banks and their central banks.

America seems to make little anymore. I do love my Vita-Mix blender. Oreck vacuums. Nesco cookers. There are a few around the house. :)

when the light o truth meets light o day
...ain't nuttin to hide under or behind...

He was pretty awesome, wasn't he, tonys247?

spaceyhippie, your verse reminds me of Warren Buffet's reference to the receding tide showing us who's been swimming without their trunks!

"i don't know where i'm a gonna go when the volcano blow"
- jimmy buffett

may you live in interesting times
ancient blessing slash curse
...all times are... interesting
popcorn helps, even cures
=o)

MTH

And yet you continue to support the McMann's of politics.

MTH,

join the f-ing club.

Classy! Really helped drive your point home.

Your welcome, themman.

Spaceguy, that's funny if you think I'm the one supporting the bad guys. Freedom only exists within structure, and CO2 is a greenhouse gas.

Freedom only exists within structure, and CO2 is a greenhouse gas.

And if that structure has been built by those who see "individual liberty is incompatible with life in a resource constrained world" then freedom is overly constrained. By using the drumbeat of CO2, which is a necessary element of life that represents less than 3% of the Earth's greenhouse gas inventory, freedom can be constrained to whatever those who push that agenda think that they can get away with, as we are seeing the beginnings today.

Or maybe the people who poison our air and our water really think they should have the freedom to continue, and want to stall any and all legislation that might infringe upon their liberty to harm others.

More # 12.6

If you think CO2 is a pollutant, then stop breathing and slash and burn all of the plants around you because YOU exhale it and the plants use it. CO2 is a necessary REQUIREMENT of life on Earth. Al Gore is not.

The dose determines the poison, Nofluer, too much H2O and you've got a flood. CO2 has shown to pollute, just like anything else.

Actually, More, CO2 has never been proven to be a pollutant. If certain levels of a substance are dangerous, then experimentation can determine precisely WHAT levels are dangerous, and what levels are "safe.

"Levels of "toxicity" or levels that create deleterious effects such as undesirable warming of the atmosphere have never been established.

Historically, CO2 has existed at MUCH higher levels than at present without apparent harm to organisms on Earth. In fact, a causal relationship between CO2 and warming has yet to be established. There is sometimes a correlation of higher CO2 levels and warm periods, but correlation is not causation.

correlation is not causation

We also know the means by which CO2 in the atmosphere absorbs Solar infrared radiation! It's not difficult; no other known mechanism explains the observed phenomenon as well.

We also know the means by which CO2 in the atmosphere absorbs Solar infrared radiation! It's not difficult; no other known mechanism explains the observed phenomenon as well.

Yes we do, and we know that CO2 is only about 3% of the total absorption of infrared, which means that it is a very weak absorber in comparison to water vapor.

Meaning, what? Surely you know how small, steady change over a long period of time can cause a significant compounded effect.

Meaning, what? Surely you know how small, steady change over a long period of time can cause a significant compounded effect.

Actually it can't. The absorption of infrared from CO2 follows a logarithmic function, not an exponential one. That means if I increase CO2 the first time by 50% that is one function of the increase. If I then double it by another 50% (100 + 50 = 150 +75 = 225 for example), the effect is half what it was from the first 50% increase, even though in raw numbers it was 25 points higher in the second increase.

Physics has no partisan affiliation.

Physics has no partisan affiliation.

that brings to mind an interesting concept
the salesman changing the subject
dismissing valid concerns
for its own selfish self-interest
pretending to be yer friend
vilifying its rival
dismissing the competition
demonizing its mortal enemy
quashing rebellion

if it's important enough, it'll be attended to
that's a natural law o physics for reason or something

don't make any plans for my life without consulting me first, ok ?
would be a natural law o friendly helpful negotiation or something

between science n globocorp etc
which is addressing the pertinent issues o the other
of any other
ever
=o?

which preys most effectively
on the worry we all innately have
"i can't figure out the world by meself"

to a corporation slash business, etc
taxonomy is inventory... even arsenal
they'll throw empty boxes when they run outta everything else

if it is not a concern o business, commerce, free-market... no
if it is not a concern of science, it is no concern at all
as science is concerned wit all things
economics is a concern o science
therefore n thusly
cuz it falls within the realm o measurable reality
and who still wants to be argumentative in the face o that ?
who could possibly benefit from any brand o misrepresentation ?
and... who is more reasonably accused o selfish self-interest etc ?

the realities o economics are being accounted for, accommodated
from the science side o the argument
n while we're at it
who's arguing wit science
n who's falling for that, really ?

who is resigning control to whatever the default settings are
n how'd they get talked into that silly idea, of all dealio thingies ?

i think it's more...
we're being talked into thinking
oddly... curiously... erroneously:
"some, many, have been talked into believing business"
"there's an army o enthusiastic sheep out there... voting"
each valid concerns... if real...
if mis-estimated tho... beware
but such misconceptions serve a primary purpose
(and we know this cuz we've taken measurements):
so that the reasonable outspoken will take a step back, n begone
...no one in their right minds thinks globocorp cares about people
n someone not in their right mind
is who you take a step back from

there's no points for dragging yer heels in the face of a valid concern
wherein time is a factor, gentlemen
except... one... possible
...process o elimination

but it's not all bad
cuz... then again...
if jack had never fallen for the smarmy salesman
there'd still be a giant up in the clouds somewhere

there're thingies yer sposedta keep from yer childhood
learning to read, learning to walk, liking to be learning
it's considered a silly childish thing to be into comic books etc
snide dismissiveness is considered bratty on civilized planets
"quit cryin" as an edict or general vibe, enables many an injustice
n "think for yerself" is often an insidiously marked pre-paved path
find out what the thingy or problem is
n then solving it, is responsible adult
we need more planets, civilizations, like that in the galaxy
...before the black hole in the center swallows everything
;o)

Zap,

This whole forum is also (I thought) about expressing views that are coherent and make some point. Either way, you are correct; I will refrain from further digression. My bad!